WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.912 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:16.149 --> 00:00:19.390 We should be pretty honest that we're there for-- in most 00:00:19.390 --> 00:00:22.030 of our interviews, for what we could call the tough stuff, 00:00:22.030 --> 00:00:23.890 the difficult stuff, the painful stuff, 00:00:23.890 --> 00:00:27.010 the things that bring up the memory of death or loss 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:30.000 or horrors that no human being should see. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:30.280 or horrors that no human being should see. 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.040 And it's not that you're going to hit them with it, 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:38.200 but you're going to figure out a way in which you made them 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:41.290 comfortable enough that they feel comfortable enough 00:00:41.290 --> 00:00:42.157 to share that. 00:00:42.157 --> 00:00:43.490 And that's the way it should be. 00:00:43.490 --> 00:00:45.850 So we're working in our film in the Second World War, 00:00:45.850 --> 00:00:46.999 called "The War." 00:00:46.999 --> 00:00:49.540 We're telling the story of the Second World War, the greatest 00:00:49.540 --> 00:00:52.600 cataclysm in human history, mostly through the eyes 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:54.910 of people from four geographically distributed 00:00:54.910 --> 00:00:56.110 American towns. 00:00:56.110 --> 00:00:58.060 But we've also got a few ringers in there. 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:00.000 And we have a historian, Paul Fussell, 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.310 And we have a historian, Paul Fussell, 00:01:00.310 --> 00:01:02.950 who was actually in combat as an infantry man. 00:01:02.950 --> 00:01:07.107 He was in France in 1944 and 1945, 00:01:07.107 --> 00:01:09.190 where the life expectancy of a Second Lieutenant-- 00:01:09.190 --> 00:01:10.240 which he was-- 00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:13.090 by age 19 was something like 17 days. 00:01:13.090 --> 00:01:15.700 In 17 days, you were either killed, severely wounded, 00:01:15.700 --> 00:01:17.380 or you went crazy. 00:01:17.380 --> 00:01:21.070 And he went six months without ever brushing his teeth, 00:01:21.070 --> 00:01:23.260 without ever taking a shower, without ever 00:01:23.260 --> 00:01:27.520 changing his clothes, because he was really good at what he did. 00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:30.000 And what he did was not get wounded, not 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:30.460 And what he did was not get wounded, not 00:01:30.460 --> 00:01:32.770 die, not go crazy, and more important, 00:01:32.770 --> 00:01:37.600 knew how to kill the other-- the enemy, and do it very expertly. 00:01:37.600 --> 00:01:40.270 So we had a we had a-- 00:01:40.270 --> 00:01:41.570 gold in our hands. 00:01:41.570 --> 00:01:43.970 But he's also an academic. 00:01:43.970 --> 00:01:47.020 And so he came with a certain amount of self-consciousness. 00:01:47.020 --> 00:01:51.070 He was, in the first three reels, palpably-- 00:01:51.070 --> 00:01:53.200 palpably-- anxious. 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.810 And it manifested by the fact that his mouth 00:01:55.810 --> 00:01:57.080 went completely dry. 00:01:57.080 --> 00:01:59.140 And we always sit some water next to somebody 00:01:59.140 --> 00:02:00.000 so that they can, you know, take a sip and, you know, 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.230 so that they can, you know, take a sip and, you know, 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:04.630 clear their throats. 00:02:04.630 --> 00:02:06.010 But this wasn't working for him. 00:02:06.010 --> 00:02:08.710 And you could-- you could almost hear his heart pounding. 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:10.240 And there was an awkwardness. 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.730 And so the first reels were something like this. 00:02:12.730 --> 00:02:14.570 It wasn't the material was so bad, 00:02:14.570 --> 00:02:17.680 but you understood that the way he was vibrating, 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:19.240 it wasn't quite working. 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:19.891 So-- 00:02:19.891 --> 00:02:22.390 KEN BURNS (ON VIDEO): What was the mood of the country right 00:02:22.390 --> 00:02:23.650 after Pearl Harbor? 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:26.544 Did all the young men rush to enlist? 00:02:26.544 --> 00:02:28.210 I mean, what was just the general tenor. 00:02:28.210 --> 00:02:29.710 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): OK. 00:02:29.710 --> 00:02:30.000 My friends, who were different from me, they were athletic. 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.920 My friends, who were different from me, they were athletic. 00:02:33.920 --> 00:02:34.420 I was not. 00:02:34.420 --> 00:02:36.460 I was aesthetic. 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:39.490 My friends all rushed off to join the Marine Corps 00:02:39.490 --> 00:02:41.530 as Patriots. 00:02:41.530 --> 00:02:43.560 And they were all accepted immediately. 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.660 And within about two weeks, they'd 00:02:45.660 --> 00:02:47.300 been sent off to Marine training. 00:02:47.300 --> 00:02:49.140 So there's nothing wrong. 00:02:49.140 --> 00:02:50.170 He's expository. 00:02:50.170 --> 00:02:52.340 But you can see he's so nervous. 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:56.290 And he's feeling the need to sort of add more detail. 00:02:56.290 --> 00:02:57.500 They were athletic. 00:02:57.500 --> 00:02:58.210 I was aesthetic. 00:02:58.210 --> 00:02:59.920 He's-- that was a great line. 00:02:59.920 --> 00:03:00.000 It would have been great, but it kind of had an unnaturalness. 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.620 It would have been great, but it kind of had an unnaturalness. 00:03:02.620 --> 00:03:05.050 And he himself wasn't sure whether he would add it in. 00:03:05.050 --> 00:03:08.260 I have spent the first few reels desperately trying 00:03:08.260 --> 00:03:10.360 to make him comfortable and nothing's working. 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.030 And I've actually stopped and I've said, Paul, you know, 00:03:13.030 --> 00:03:13.690 it's OK. 00:03:13.690 --> 00:03:15.100 Take a drink of water. 00:03:15.100 --> 00:03:15.700 This is great. 00:03:15.700 --> 00:03:16.810 You're doing terrifically. 00:03:16.810 --> 00:03:21.040 And I was considering after a while doing this "En Francais," 00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:22.840 which is our signal since the beginning 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.420 that we started Florentine Films that that meant 00:03:25.420 --> 00:03:29.020 the cameramen wouldn't roll, and we wouldn't waste the very 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:30.000 precious, very expensive film, and that we'd 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.300 precious, very expensive film, and that we'd 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:34.360 record something and honor our subject. 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:36.880 But he was too important, and I knew he had a lot to say. 00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:39.310 He'd written extraordinary books about warfare 00:03:39.310 --> 00:03:41.480 and about his experience in warfare. 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:46.430 Then, in between a reel change, he 00:03:46.430 --> 00:03:48.050 had been talking about the kids that 00:03:48.050 --> 00:03:49.357 were sent up as replacements. 00:03:49.357 --> 00:03:50.690 And I said, wait a second, Paul. 00:03:50.690 --> 00:03:52.400 How old were the kids? 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:56.844 And-- and he said, oh, 18. 00:03:56.844 --> 00:03:58.010 And I said, how old are you? 00:03:58.010 --> 00:04:00.000 And he goes, 19. 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:00.660 And he goes, 19. 00:04:00.660 --> 00:04:04.320 And I just-- I suddenly got it. 00:04:04.320 --> 00:04:09.330 That he hadn't yet accessed that 19-year-old person 00:04:09.330 --> 00:04:10.740 that he once was. 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:13.110 And so I said, you saw bad stuff. 00:04:13.110 --> 00:04:15.360 And his-- he changed entirely. 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.959 All of a sudden, the academic fell away. 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:22.110 And he wanted to say, I saw bad stuff. 00:04:22.110 --> 00:04:24.900 But all of his-- he felt somehow constrained, 00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:28.350 that he had to be the avuncular historian, perhaps 00:04:28.350 --> 00:04:30.000 the patch on his tweed jacket, and offer pearls of wisdom. 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.300 the patch on his tweed jacket, and offer pearls of wisdom. 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:33.930 And that I didn't need him to do that. 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:37.320 I needed him to be Paul Fussell, the 19-year-old Second 00:04:37.320 --> 00:04:41.190 Lieutenant who was out living every single hour 00:04:41.190 --> 00:04:45.300 the actuarial tables for his position, 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:46.570 for his job description. 00:04:46.570 --> 00:04:50.760 And so, you know, now we're into roll 145. 00:04:50.760 --> 00:04:52.500 This is in 2003. 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:53.490 It's February. 00:04:53.490 --> 00:04:57.339 And something begins to happen. 00:04:57.339 --> 00:04:58.880 KEN BURNS (ON VIDEO): That's amazing. 00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:00.000 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): I'd say it changed a lot of minds. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.056 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): I'd say it changed a lot of minds. 00:05:02.056 --> 00:05:04.240 KEN BURNS (ON VIDEO): You've seen some bad stuff. 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.800 You seen some horrible things. 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:06.060 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): Yeah. 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:07.768 KEN BURNS (ON VIDEO): Tell me about that. 00:05:07.768 --> 00:05:12.780 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): Well, I think 00:05:12.780 --> 00:05:16.350 the most horrible was one of the first horrors I confronted. 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:20.560 It was the-- the day after our night relief 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:24.970 for this unit of the 33rd division. 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:26.900 First it was the dead German boys 00:05:26.900 --> 00:05:28.570 lying all over the field of battle 00:05:28.570 --> 00:05:30.000 and beginning to turn yellow, and so forth. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:31.150 and beginning to turn yellow, and so forth. 00:05:31.150 --> 00:05:33.010 Their eyes open. 00:05:33.010 --> 00:05:35.740 I'd never seen a cadaver with eyes open before. 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.680 I'd seen dead people, like my relatives in coffins or so on. 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.950 Their eyes were always decently closed. 00:05:41.950 --> 00:05:44.860 And when you see violently killed people 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:48.100 with holes in them and missing limbs and so on, staring 00:05:48.100 --> 00:05:51.790 at you with open eyes as if they were alive, 00:05:51.790 --> 00:05:54.550 you feel terribly disconnected from things. 00:05:54.550 --> 00:05:57.000 Are you supposed to say something to them? 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.230 Are you supposed to say, I'm sorry? 00:05:59.230 --> 00:06:00.000 Did it hurt much? 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:00.470 Did it hurt much? 00:06:00.470 --> 00:06:01.390 And so forth. 00:06:01.390 --> 00:06:08.340 I came across two German kids dead, lying on their backs. 00:06:08.340 --> 00:06:10.650 They'd been killed the day before the unit 00:06:10.650 --> 00:06:12.980 we were replacing. 00:06:12.980 --> 00:06:15.480 And they were so young I couldn't believe it. 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:20.190 I thought they were between maybe 12 and 14 years old. 00:06:20.190 --> 00:06:22.370 And at the end of the war, of course, 00:06:22.370 --> 00:06:24.770 the Germans were absolutely scraping 00:06:24.770 --> 00:06:26.180 the barrel of everybody. 00:06:26.180 --> 00:06:30.000 Old men who could hardly walk and little kids from, you know, 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:30.980 Old men who could hardly walk and little kids from, you know, 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:33.070 late grammar school. 00:06:33.070 --> 00:06:35.490 These kids had little uniforms on. 00:06:35.490 --> 00:06:38.150 They were wearing caps, not helmets. 00:06:38.150 --> 00:06:41.330 And each of them had been shot through the head. 00:06:41.330 --> 00:06:47.030 And the blue-- bluish red brains of one 00:06:47.030 --> 00:06:49.130 were coming out his nostrils. 00:06:49.130 --> 00:06:51.440 They had their eyes open too. 00:06:51.440 --> 00:06:54.590 And the other one, his bluish-red brain 00:06:54.590 --> 00:06:57.100 was coming out just from under his cap. 00:06:57.100 --> 00:07:00.000 And sort of displacing his cap as he wore it. 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.950 And sort of displacing his cap as he wore it. 00:07:01.950 --> 00:07:05.850 And that really gave me a jolt. 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:09.100 I cannot describe what I went through. 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:10.300 It was terrifying. 00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:12.010 And you see he's still nervous. 00:07:12.010 --> 00:07:13.430 He's still licking his lips. 00:07:13.430 --> 00:07:17.530 But all of a sudden, he's not looking at me, and he-- he 00:07:17.530 --> 00:07:19.780 doesn't seem to be in the room that the interview is 00:07:19.780 --> 00:07:20.770 taking place. 00:07:20.770 --> 00:07:22.180 He's looking off. 00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:23.890 It doesn't really matter what I'm asking. 00:07:23.890 --> 00:07:27.310 I'm just saying, what else, and yes, and you know, 00:07:27.310 --> 00:07:29.350 you saw bad stuff, and what did you feel. 00:07:29.350 --> 00:07:30.000 And he's looking off to the place where he was. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.250 And he's looking off to the place where he was. 00:07:33.250 --> 00:07:36.550 And that is when an interview becomes gold. 00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:44.110 Can I just say something? 00:07:44.110 --> 00:07:48.160 Saying the word "gold" is so incredibly insulting. 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.950 It's as if we're in some business in which, you know, 00:07:50.950 --> 00:07:56.560 we measure it by the success of what we extract inquisitively 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.810 from people, as if we've raped them. 00:07:58.810 --> 00:08:00.000 Vampires that have sucked the blood out of them. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:02.120 Vampires that have sucked the blood out of them. 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:03.530 And that's not what it's about. 00:08:03.530 --> 00:08:05.590 And that's not who I'm about. 00:08:05.590 --> 00:08:10.060 I'm about some reciprocity that at the same time honors Paul. 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:13.030 And I have done a disservice to Paul 00:08:13.030 --> 00:08:15.460 by saying that it was gold. 00:08:15.460 --> 00:08:19.900 What he gave us was a bit of his soul, and he did it generously. 00:08:19.900 --> 00:08:22.480 He may-- however unconsciously, what 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.120 it did is it added immeasurably to our film, 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.621 and I am forever in his debt. 00:08:27.621 --> 00:08:30.000 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.058 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:08:34.990 --> 00:08:36.820 So now you have a raw interview, right? 00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:37.740 And what are you going to do with it? 00:08:37.740 --> 00:08:38.549 How does it fit in? 00:08:38.549 --> 00:08:39.960 You've got lots of other interviews 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:40.830 that you have to integrate. 00:08:40.830 --> 00:08:41.460 You have a script. 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:42.299 You have a timeline. 00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:43.710 You know, where is it? 00:08:43.710 --> 00:08:46.500 And-- and-- and the placement of our talking heads 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:48.120 aren't so defined. 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:49.680 We didn't go to him and say, Paul, 00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:51.330 get us from here to here on this page 00:08:51.330 --> 00:08:52.984 of this script in this episode. 00:08:52.984 --> 00:08:54.400 We just did an interview with him. 00:08:54.400 --> 00:08:56.237 And so we're trying different places 00:08:56.237 --> 00:08:57.320 that it's going to fit in. 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.000 And in this episode, you know, there's a kind of evolution. 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:00.100 And in this episode, you know, there's a kind of evolution. 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:01.770 You want that character development 00:09:01.770 --> 00:09:03.660 you'd have in a dramatic film. 00:09:03.660 --> 00:09:05.430 And so he's beginning in the early days, 00:09:05.430 --> 00:09:08.010 talking about kind of the-- the youth of the-- 00:09:08.010 --> 00:09:08.670 the soldiers. 00:09:08.670 --> 00:09:09.810 I mean, he's 19. 00:09:09.810 --> 00:09:10.970 His replacements were 18. 00:09:10.970 --> 00:09:12.120 He calls them kids. 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:16.460 And we get one of those comments about bad things. 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:17.970 I mean, we couldn't spend them all. 00:09:17.970 --> 00:09:20.340 It was just too potent. 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:23.089 It would be too-- it would be-- it would destabilize the film 00:09:23.089 --> 00:09:24.130 if we were to use it all. 00:09:24.130 --> 00:09:26.910 But here's the context of-- 00:09:26.910 --> 00:09:29.640 I mean, here-- here is that comment 00:09:29.640 --> 00:09:30.000 in the context of our film. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.157 in the context of our film. 00:09:32.157 --> 00:09:34.740 PAUL FUSSELL (ON VIDEO): And at the end of the war, of course, 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:37.140 the Germans were absolutely scraping 00:09:37.140 --> 00:09:40.350 the barrel of everybody. 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:41.850 Old men who could hardly walk. 00:09:44.520 --> 00:09:47.370 And little kids from late grammar school. 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:52.650 These kids had little uniforms on. 00:09:52.650 --> 00:09:55.870 They were wearing caps, not helmets. 00:09:55.870 --> 00:09:59.070 And each had been shot through the head. 00:09:59.070 --> 00:10:00.000 And the blue-- bluish-red brains of one 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.680 And the blue-- bluish-red brains of one 00:10:04.680 --> 00:10:06.840 were coming out his nostrils. 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.150 They had their eyes open too. 00:10:09.150 --> 00:10:12.300 And the other one, his bluish-red brain 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:15.990 was coming out just from under his cap, and sort of displacing 00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:19.730 his cap as he wore it. 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:22.940 And that really gave me a jolt. 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:25.350 I seldom refer to it. 00:10:25.350 --> 00:10:28.120 But it was my introduction to some painful facts, 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.000 that this war is serious. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.690 that this war is serious. 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:35.590 We are going to kill people, regardless of their age, 00:10:35.590 --> 00:10:38.590 as long as they're wearing German uniforms. 00:10:38.590 --> 00:10:40.240 And they were going to try to kill us. 00:10:45.010 --> 00:10:47.210 So let me try to explain how I tried 00:10:47.210 --> 00:10:51.300 to honor the raw material of what Paul Fussell gave us 00:10:51.300 --> 00:10:52.440 in the interview. 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:55.140 So we're obviously in the context of other action. 00:10:55.140 --> 00:10:57.300 We've brought him there through narration. 00:10:57.300 --> 00:10:59.640 There's a loud battle going on. 00:10:59.640 --> 00:11:00.000 And there the narrator says, "there 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.190 And there the narrator says, "there 00:11:02.190 --> 00:11:03.960 to replace other people." 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.050 And you're seeing a soldier sort of sitting by a campfire. 00:11:07.050 --> 00:11:10.320 The sound effects, the sounds of war which have been so loud 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.110 and cacophonous and multi-dimensional, 00:11:13.110 --> 00:11:15.630 give way to a very simple piano. 00:11:15.630 --> 00:11:20.700 You then see, without seeing Paul, what he's talking about. 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:24.330 These two different dead bodies, both young. 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:25.860 Hideous shots. 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:28.800 Then we go back to the interview as-- 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:30.000 byte, as I had shared with you earlier. 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:30.990 byte, as I had shared with you earlier. 00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:34.170 And we're using generic footage of soldiers, 00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:36.210 young kids in the German army. 00:11:36.210 --> 00:11:38.530 And it's one of the few times, I believe, 00:11:38.530 --> 00:11:40.350 where the film stops and is sympathetic. 00:11:40.350 --> 00:11:42.300 And Paul gave us the license to do that. 00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:44.070 This was a film that was all going to be 00:11:44.070 --> 00:11:45.194 the American point of view. 00:11:45.194 --> 00:11:46.260 All the multiple stuffs. 00:11:46.260 --> 00:11:48.560 We weren't going to be trying to get feel-- 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:50.850 know what the Germans felt and what the Japanese felt. 00:11:50.850 --> 00:11:52.680 We weren't interested in that in that film. 00:11:52.680 --> 00:11:55.740 But in that moment, you suddenly have this sense of it 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:56.710 all being the same. 00:11:56.710 --> 00:11:59.760 And then the narrative proceeds on. 00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:00.000 And throughout the film, what was 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.460 And throughout the film, what was 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:04.110 in the back half of that interview 00:12:04.110 --> 00:12:07.410 with Paul Fussell, every time we could use him, 00:12:07.410 --> 00:12:11.800 it had a kind of potency to it. 00:12:11.800 --> 00:12:15.730 The-- it was like whiskey that was, you know, 00:12:15.730 --> 00:12:17.530 really high proof. 00:12:17.530 --> 00:12:18.880 And it was just very careful. 00:12:18.880 --> 00:12:21.610 We could only take a drink or a sip now and then 00:12:21.610 --> 00:12:23.714 of what Paul had to say.